What does Canada gain when postsecondary connects?

[00:00:10] Kim Honey: Canada's future is being written in classrooms, labs, and lecture halls in the places where people learn and in how those places connect. If collaboration holds the key to shaping that future, how do we begin unlocking its full potential? I'm Kim Honey, CEO and editor-in-chief of the Conversation Canada.

[00:00:28] And in this special episode of The Big Thinking Podcast, produced in partnership with the conversation, I'm joined by Pari Johnston from Colleges and Institutes Canada and Karine Morin from the Federation for the Humanities and Social Sciences to explore what collaboration across post-secondary education can make possible.

[00:00:51] Kim Honey: When I was looking at the Federation for Humanities and Social Sciences’ Mission and Values, it notes that they want to ‘host an innovative, progressive, and engaged network of universities, colleges, and scholarly associations.’ But then when I went to see the membership, there's only one college member, and that's George Brown College. So my question to both of you is why? What's going on here?

[00:01:13] Karine Morin: I think that's an excellent question and it's one to which I don't have a good answer at all. The Federation's rules, the bylaws have permitted that there be both universities and colleges for several decades now, and the reason why we would not have actively looked to colleges to join us as members, it's a bit baffling to me, but clearly there can be an interesting partnership there.

[00:01:38] And we had that demonstration with George Brown College. I would note that the president of the College had previously been a university professor, perhaps had some direct exposure to Congress, and exposure to this community through the Federation, and so that there was someone who knew of the possibilities of joining the Federation as a college.

[00:01:59] It may be that that group is still too small, but we'd hope that the community of colleges noted that George Brown College hosted us, and that we'd welcome to be hosted by another.

[00:02:09] Kim Honey: Pari, you have worked previously for Universities Canada and now you're the president of CICan. What is going on from your perspective?

[00:02:18] Pari Johnston: I want to share a couple thoughts. I think for sure you're right, the profile and history and community built by Congress and the Federation are very embedded in the university experience, and I think that it is probably a little bit indicative of a couple of things.  

[00:02:43] One is that the framing is, you know, very focused on disciplines, right? And it's also very focused on presenting and engaging in scholarly associations where folks are invited to talk about their publications, their research, etc. And, and I guess in part, Kim, and we'll probably get into this over the course of the conversation, the nature of college applied research is, is just a bit different.

[00:03:13] Like it is, it is, first of all, very partner driven, and the primary partners for Canadian colleges in their research are Canadian small and medium sized enterprises. So the problem set, it doesn't always line up, I think, with some of the things that they may see going on in Congress.  

[00:03:33] The second thing I would say is that it is very focused on applied problem-driven research. So it's less about talking about, you know, the new discoveries or new knowledge generated in a particular discipline or field with colleagues, it's much more about what is the problem this particular partner is trying to solve? How can we bring them together with our technicians, our instructors, our faculty, our students solve that problem, whether it's a new prototype, a new product, a new service.

[00:04:03] So, I wonder if part of what's going on is there's a perceived misalignment between he nature of college applied research and maybe what the history of Congress and the Federation has typically been.  

[00:04:18] That's not to say that a lot of the problems that are addressed in college applied-research are not social problems. I mean, and this is the thing, like there is an incredible amount of work being done in the area of social innovation, working with partners that are community partners.  

[00:04:33] A great example that I got a chance to meet when I was doing some campus visits was at the Georgian College campus where they have a very thriving social innovation center and lab, and they're doing some incredible research on equity and poverty issues and support to community driven economic development, uh, with the Y with other social partners in Barrie.

[00:04:56] So, there's interest in the big picture issues for sure in many of our Québec CÉGEP as well, are very immersed in socially relevant research, but I suspect that part of the issue is the framing of the opportunity and ensuring alignment and, with the mission of college applied research, and maybe that's what Karine and I can explore is how do we better do that? So there's a sense of belonging and a sense of that they're adding to the conversation and welcomed and I think maybe there's more to do in that area.

[00:05:31] Kim Honey: So let's go back a few decades, you know, to the formation of the Colleges and the University systems, and you know about this, uh, misperception of colleges that I think comes from back in the day when students were streamed and you went to university or you went to vocational stream and that led to college and that led to uni or something in between.

[00:05:52] And now we have many more in between. Do you think that this exclusion or misalignment comes from [the fact] that there is still a hangover from that? Do people still think that colleges are something that they are completely different, they look completely different today. Do you think people still see them as a place where you go to get a course that leads to a job? It's vocational. This post-secondary stream is about getting a job.

[00:06:21] Pari Johnston: You know, one of the opportunities I think I've had in joining this wonderful association almost two years ago now, is that the story to be told about the College Polytechnic Institute and CÉGEP experience is firstly one of impact and one of a lot of diverse opportunities, first of all.

[00:06:40] But second, certainly the through thread from when our system was first started to be really stood up and it's an internationally recognized high quality system is that these are institutions that are ultimately designed to respond to the needs of their local communities to lead to careers and employment. And that is a beautiful thing, that is really necessary.

[00:07:08] But what is also very important to know is that this experience has been more and more wrapped up in applied research opportunities, you know, the students, the polytechnic, and many, many of our colleges have very much developed over the last 20 years a very strong applied research breadth and depth.  

[00:07:25] This was really started in the Québec CÉGEP, I would say through the "transfert de technologie” (technology transfert). So there's, so that's an evolution that has come into play in the last couple of decades, and I don't think people know a lot about, Kim.

[00:07:39] The other thing I would say is that, you know, as our system has grown and matured, the opportunities to have a lot more international experiences, work integrated learning experiences in other parts of the country or the world, those have been layered in as the colleges respond to the needs of their communities and their business partners.

[00:07:58] So, and they're very cutting-edge facilities, and I have had the chance to be in many of them now, and I think Canadians probably don't quite understand until they get onto college campuses more. And, in many regions, they are the anchor public institution with those facilities that serve community as community hubs for research and innovation.

[00:08:19] And so, I think, the drive to continue to ensure applied learning and readiness for the job market is a core value, frankly, but it's, the experience around it has been very much layered on with opportunities to do research, opportunities to have mobility abroad, opportunities to volunteer and have work integrated experiences.

[00:08:45] So, people should get on college campuses like I have, and you're really kind of blown away by what is going on, and I think part of my work has been to try to encourage our parliamentarians, our decision makers, our university partners and others to get a better read on what's going on because it's really going to be part of what Canada needs to continue to value along with our universities if we want to train the folks of the future for what Canada needs.

[00:09:12] Kim Honey: Yes, and Karine, I was just going to ask you, it's interesting because from what Pari said, I see two things happening here, and I know you guys know this has been discussed previously, is that some universities feel colleges are stepping on their toes because they're starting to offer degrees and indeed some polytechnics masters.

[00:09:28] On the other side of the equation, universities are offering co-op programs, which are work integrated learning, and students are really pumped for that, they really want it. It almost seems like in some instances people feel like the two of them, there's two solitudes and they're traipsing on each other's territory. How do you think that does that, is that true or is that a false dichotomy?

[00:09:52] Karine Morin: Well. I was going to come to this at a slightly different angle, relying a little bit on my experience in Québec, where CÉGEPS are really a steppingstone often to universities, so it's hard to go through higher education without knowing of CÉGEPs.

[00:10:10] And then choices that are made between the sort of general courses or professional stream. It seems to be that, keeping in mind that CÉGEPs date of the sixties, and I think that's true also of a majority of colleges or that's when they were started. There's still more than a misunderstanding, I think there's just a lack of knowledge and awareness.

[00:10:33] I think of my parents' generation, if I were to place ourselves as a family outside of Québec, I don't think colleges would've been as unavoidable to consider and learn of as the case was for CÉGEPs in Quebec. So I think a lot of people still have not visited the college, have not considered exactly what type of learning there is, and as much as we'll often emphasize research applied research, the more theoretical or foundational research of universities, the learning opportunities I think are altogether, extremely rich.  

[00:11:06] And so I just took it as an example of, you know, someone who has an interest in environmental studies, and that undergraduate degree is going to be a little, perhaps a little vague, a little uncertain as to what is the outcome; what job will it lead to? And here in Ottawa, Algonquin College has an environmental management and assessment program.

[00:11:27] And I'm thinking right there, I think I have a much more precise understanding of what it is to study in this field with applications. So the research elements are important to consider, but the learning teaching opportunities and how people who may want that sort of early experience upon which you might then return to get theoretical understanding.

[00:11:50] A lot of times when we think of mature students who return after some work experience. So I could see that the two combined colleges and universities just offer a lot more choice than is being recognized right now by anyone who's trying to think higher-ed, depending on where in their life course, professional course they are either of the two set of institutions might be a better fit for what they're looking for.  

[00:12:14] And so I think there's just a lot for people to learn of colleges throughout the country and to know that there's a diversity of programs across these institutions, that there's something about the proximity of these institutions that makes them really attractive.

[00:12:30] Colleges are everywhere, even more so than universities. So I think people are shortchanging themselves if they're not looking at the full panoply of opportunities in higher ed through colleges and through universities.

[00:12:43] Kim Honey: Well, I think it's interesting that you did bring that up because you know, OECD, the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development, you know, the data shows that Canada's one of most highly educated countries in the world for tertiary education, which includes both colleges and universities.

[00:13:00] And very few. I think it's something like 72% and then maybe another 20% half high school, so students know the other. But the thing that you just brought up that, I don't know if this is anecdotal, maybe Pari can tell me, maybe you guys know, among my generation, and I'm like a boomer, right on the edge, it seemed like people were getting their degrees and then they were going to college to get like this environmental studies example you gave, you know, they had the degree it got, you know, it was very general. And there's jokes about these studies, environmental studies, women's studies, it's sort of seen as ‘airy fairy.’

[00:13:37] And then they, they're like, well, you know, my BA's not getting me anywhere, so I'm gonna go take an HR certificate, a two-year HR certificate at college. This was, this was something that I felt was common. Pari, do you know if that is born out in research or data?

[00:13:52] Pari Johnston: I think you know, the point about pathways is really the important one and providing students many doors into where they want to go.

[00:14:02] Statistics Canada data shows that right now, one in four college students are university grads. So to your point, um, and I think where I come at this is, how do we ensure that the full breadth of the public post-secondary system in the country, is seen as high value and that the doors are open to allow choice and, and, and pathways?

[00:14:32] I think I'm much more interested in a ‘both/and’ conversation, than an ‘us versus them’ or a, you know, ‘good versus whatever’. I really think that it doesn't serve our learners or those that are coming back to re-skill or upskill as much as it does to think, okay, how do we ensure that wherever you are in your learning journey, that you have options in your community.

[00:14:58] And to, you know, this is as Karine mentioned, one of the things that I learned when I came here, and I like to say a lot, is that 95% of Canadians live within 50 kilometers of a Canadian community college and/or a learning center.  

[00:15:10] So we are very present in community and that if you think about First Nations learners, 86% of First Nations communities are near a college or learner center. So again, we're present in ways that really matter in remote, rural and Indigenous communities that allow for that opportunity for post-secondary in a way that is very localized, very aligned with local economic development.  

[00:15:37] You know, the thing with colleges is they do work very closely for curricular development with industry or other community partners. So there's this constant feedback loop to ensure that the curriculum and the programs they're delivering are very relevant to the needs of local employers.  

[00:15:54] And that is a really important value proposition, I think in the context of, you know, when, when Canadians right now are very worried about their jobs, they're worried about being able to afford groceries and housing, you know, the sense of pocketbook issues for Canadians across the country as we deal with the churn that's going on in the world.  

[00:16:14] You know, you want to ensure that you're making choices for your education or your family's future, your children's education that feels like it's going to lead to something important.  

[00:16:25] That said, I really want to underscore the value of a strong basis, regardless of what you study. So I'm a French literature grad and somebody might say, wow, how is that relevant? It was hugely relevant, it's allowed me to be an exceptional writer, I'm bilingual, I have been able to understand the importance of storytelling and context, and that came through a really rich undergrad experience in humanities.

[00:16:53] So, um, you'll never hear me talk about an ‘us versus them’ context, it's much more about how do we create access and opportunities for students to ensure that they have a choice wherever they live, and that we create those pathways between institutions so that universities and colleges in the same region are working together more closely, we have examples across the country, I'd love to see a lot more of it.  

[00:17:20] Kim Honey: So, I think that's a good point, like we have the example of Québec where people go to CÉGEPs and then they go on or not, or they go somewhere else, and we have this back and forth, these collaborations.  

[00:17:30] I have a friend whose daughter totally flunked out of high school, but managed to get into York Seneca program, that transfer program for students to get a ladder in through the college.

[00:17:42] And then you get some university credits. So they can go either way, they can get a certificate and I see these programs all over the place, you can get a college certificate and you can get a degree in a less amount of time in four years.  

[00:17:54] What do we need? Do we need more of those? And if so, do you have some examples of great ones that, we should be looking at?

[00:18:04] Yeah, exactly, I mean, I think there are a lot of those articulation and partnerships going on, and I think more in the works. I like to give a couple of examples that I've seen more recently.  

[00:18:14] So if you think about the opportunity as Canada looks to really double down on its leadership in small modular nuclear energy, there's some real expertise across many of the Ontario institutions.

[00:18:28] And there is a very strong partnership developing with Humber Polytechnic, with Ontario University of Technology, with Durham College, etc., and it's about creating partnerships and everybody playing to their strengths around a particular challenge. And I think that if we think, we think about that in the context of the mining sector, where are there clusters of real expertise and how can, how can programs and curriculum be joined up, where can, where can there be opportunities to create joint offerings or, you know, in Northern, and Southern Ontario? I think those are interesting.

[00:19:07] We see it in aviation, for example, in Northern and Southern Ontario between say, Seneca Polytechnic and Confederation College. So I'm seeing it within the college sector and polytechnic sector, and I'm seeing it across college and universities.

[00:19:19] The other thing I'm seeing is more colocation, really what I'm watching opportunities I like to talk about is the fact that, Saskatchewan Polytechnic is partnering to bring all its infrastructure in one place in partnership with, University of Saskatchewan to create a whole innovation corridor.

[00:19:40] And that's going to be a really interesting for those students in those two institutions as they develop opportunities, I'm assuming for partnerships and joint programming in areas that support the Saskatchewan economy.  

[00:19:54] You know, and I think there's a lot of examples in BC of articulation and transfer agreements between the colleges and the universities. So it's happening, I think there's real opportunities and other challenge areas, like I talked about, nuclear and mining, I think there's other examples that we, we could be thinking about in AI as well.

[00:20:13] There's been a really important work across the post-secondary system, lots of different round tables that are coming together to talk about how do we work together as a system to ensure that the government's AI strategy is leaning into its post-secondary institutions, support broad-based literacy and broad-based partnerships with our small and medium sized enterprises to support adoption, so those are a couple of examples.

[00:20:40] Karine Morin: And I'll add to them in a way that isn't quite the partnership model as you've just described them, these examples, Pari, but again, sort of putting on an older hat that I used to wear when I was with, one of the funding agencies of the Tri-Council, we developed a program for equity diversity inclusion.

[00: 20:57] Now, if that isn't all humanities and social sciences, I don't know what is. And lo and behold, you would've thought that the theorist coming from a university would've had the upper hand on the matter, but not at all.

[00:21:08] The experiences that colleges were bringing to this program, ‘Dimensions program’ on equity, diversity, inclusion in higher education in post institutions was extremely valuable.

[00:21:20] They had been student-centered and had had a diversity of student that they would absolutely recognize and in a way, cherish and cultivate in a way that a university student was sort of like, an undergrad is an undergrad is an undergrad, even though that may be an international student, a first generation student, etc.

[00:21:39] So, I think the colleges have a lot to provide as examples that can be of value to our universities and those, in that particular program, that collaboration between these institutions was extremely enriching and I think opened up the eyes of universities who were working on equity, diversity, and inclusion in a sort of rarefied way that in colleges had been happening on the ground very concretely, tangibly, and with great success.  

[00:22:07] So partnerships and these collaborations can be facilitated by mind, certainly when we think, again, research and the funding, the research councils could facilitate a little bit of that, and the fact that we're having this conversation, Pari, I think can also give our institution members, some ideas of what they might be doing.

[00:22:27] Pari Johnston: I really wanted to also, as you were talking, I wanted to add another thing with respect to areas of, you know, mutual learning and, and where I've certainly experienced a lot of leadership among our membership, and that's, with respect to supporting Indigenous led approaches, learners, and ways of being and knowing.

[00:22:45] So we're proud to have a number of Indigenous Institutes of Education as part of our membership, and as well as many of our members who are non-Indigenous across the country, who have really embraced our Indigenous education protocol, which was launched in 2014 to support Indigenous learners and their community's self-defined needs.

[00:23:06] I was just in Calgary a couple weeks ago where we had our 16th annual Indigenous Education symposium, and we had a lot of universities there and they were saying to me, wow, how do we get signing onto your education protocol? And they were in different sharing circles and other opportunities to learn from the leadership at the Indigenous Institutes of Education in terms of how the, you know, culturally grounded curriculum and working with communities, a land-based education.  

[00:23:34] And so just another area where I think there's rich opportunity for a mutual learning, but the, where there's a real leadership role being played by the institutions across the country who are, you know, within our membership, but who actually could bring something, I think very valuable to the broader post-secondary system in the context of a very important national commitment to reconciliation and supporting Indigenous learners, you know, meet their aspirations.

[00:24:04] Kim Honey: So colleges have a lot to teach universities is what I hear you saying, which is a great picture and a great thing to think about. Karine, what can universities learn from colleges and what do universities have to offer colleges?

[00:24:18] Karine Morin: Well, we've highlighted a few of the things that I think universities are learning, the practical experience, right. Even at an undergrad degree, it was very much a sort of theoretical, foundational knowledge and such ways of conceiving the education and more and more there's a real desire to get practical experience, and we've alluded to the fact that colleges often are able to provide that.

[00:24:43] So we've, we've given mostly examples in that direction. I think the other way, universities, this is where, again, Pari was alluding to the fact that there has been research opportunities through universities, there's ecosystems of support for research, which I think ought to be opened up and shared with colleges.

[00:25:03] So that the research right now that we tend to say happens in colleges as applied, I'm pretty sure that behind every applied question, there's a little bit of foundational, theoretical work that also has to be done, and I think what we need to learn from each other is trying to avoid these rigid divisions and really see fuller spectrums of ways in which this knowledge is shared with student, how this knowledge is shared with community, how this knowledge can be shared across these types of institutions.  

[00:25:38] And, and it does us a disadvantage when we try and separate too much, when in fact, again, there will be some blending and I think it is helpful, enriching when there is, so earlier we were saying some colleges seeking to be more like diploma granting.  

[00:25:56] Why not? If that makes it accessible to some, and if that exposes some to the way that diplomas, or degrees are granted by university, any way to learn of the opportunities, of the options of the choice, I think is beneficial.

[00:26:11] Kim Honey: So we had Congress where you had George Brown involved, it was actually held there. I know we don't have that big spectacular event with 7,000 people next year and it's going to be smaller, but you were trying to include colleges in this university ecosystem.  

[00:26:30] So what's next? How do we do that? We have the Canadian Institutes Colleges, and we have the Universities Canada, how do we get the twain to meet?

[00:26:38] Karine Morin: So we had that initial conversation at George Brown College, the Congress theme was ‘Reframing togetherness’, and we used that opportunity to have that conversation with CICan.  

[00:26:49] Indeed, the Federation is plotting something that is not a Congress this coming year, 2026, but something we're referring to as a Big Thinking Summit, it's taking place in Edmonton in Alberta.  

[00:26:59] And there are plenty of post-secondary institutions, both universities and colleges. So it's our hope that, as we start promoting a little bit more this event, that our promotion of the event will not be limited to universities at all. And we hope that institutions who are close by will take interest and might become, direct participants engaged in that Federation event.

[00:27:21] Kim Honey: Okay, Pari, what do you think should happen?

[00:27:24] Pari Johnston: I think that it's all about continuing to be really inclusive in the framing and the opportunity. We work closely with our colleagues at Universities Canada on a range of issues, and that continues, I think there are real opportunities, as I said earlier, with respect to the whole focus on an AI strategy and how as post-secondary, the system, we can be key partners in that real imperative to ensure that our learners are equipped and our communities are equipped and our businesses are adopting what's coming and what's here.

[00:28:01] I think too, the other area where I'm hopeful that we can have some more conversations over time is, you know, as we look to navigating some of the challenges that we're facing in the college and university sector as it relates to funding.

[00:28:18] You know, there is a real challenge with generally underfunding across the country in the provincial post-secondary systems, and I am very, very interested in ensuring that we find ways to work in a unified way to make the case for reinvestments, to ensure that the kinds of future we want, our province, our learners to have, our citizens to have across the country is continuing through a strong public, public post-secondary system.

[00:28:49] And, you know, we've been having some important conversations with our colleagues in the university sector as well, there’s some really nice examples of collaboration with Colleges Ontario, the Council of Ontario Universities and the Ontario Chamber of Commerce who are really working shoulder to shoulder to convey the importance of broad skills agenda for Ontario's future.

[00:29:13] And I think that, you know, that's a great example of what we could take in a more national way with Universities Canada, the Canadian Chamber of Commerce, we are very keen to collaborate around a skills agenda that is really inclusive of the broad base that's needed.  

[00:29:31] Because if we want to build Canada both in the context of new infrastructure, new housing starts, and  more productivity through AI, we're going to need all the post-secondaries around the table.

[00:29:45] Kim Honey: Are either of you worried that our post-secondary educational landscape will change soon given the funding challenges? I mean, I've seen it in our membership, you know, university institutes, some are not renewing because their budget cuts were so deep.  

[00:30:00] We have the international cap hitting colleges quite hard as well as universities, there have been headlines about X college, Y university perhaps not being around. Do you think we are looking at a future where it becomes necessary that perhaps there's a university and a college maybe even on the same campus?

[00:30:20] Well, I think for sure, Kim, it has been an incredibly disruptive time within the sector, speaking for the college as an institute sector right now, for sure.  

[00:30:31] When I joined CICan, I'd only been in the role six weeks when the first, when Minister Miller announced the cap. And it has been, you know, a cumulative series of changes since then that have been very challenging to absorb.  

[00:30:42] We want stability and predictability in the system and understand that, you know, there needed to be some recalibration in the overall numbers, but the fact remains, I'll just say this before I get back to your question, Canada will need an ongoing positive approach to immigration.  

[00:31:00] Our demographics, our regional needs require it. So part of the challenge is how do we rebuild a strong public consensus around the need for immigration in this country, and international students are part of that.

[00:31:13] But yeah, we're seeing a lot of contraction in the system, to your, to your point, you know, in Ontario alone, there's the data that was out this summer with respect to job losses, with respect to program closures, some campus closures is very significant.

[00:31:29] But we're seeing similar challenges in Québec, which is combined with provincial, lot of provincial government funding cuts, you know, there's challenges in BC and right across the country.

[00:31:39] So for sure, part of the challenge is how do we continue to evolve as a system, stay strong, stay vital and viable, because Canada needs us. I mean, we, you know, there's no path to Candace's future that doesn't run through the public post-secondary system, I believe that with my heart, but we need to have more national conversation with key partners around the same table, making that case and figuring out how we're going to work together to do that.

[00:32:09] Karine Morin: I think in a way that it's unfortunate if we look at some of those, circumstances as dividing when they should absolutely be uniting us. The underfunding is true across the higher education sector. We need to address that, and oftentimes, it's a single minister in a province that has to see the whole picture.

[00:32:26] In terms of research funding, research agency, federal funding agencies are providing the funding to both colleges and universities. They need to understand the whole system and the benefits to funding the whole system.  

[00:32:39] International students, it is the whole system that needs to be able to absorb, first of all, attract them and welcome them.

[00:32:47] And then I'll just say, I think AI is coming to the higher education sector as a whole and for any one of the two types of institutions trying to solve it on its own will not be to the benefit of all. So we might as well be addressing that particular challenge across universities and colleges.  

[00:33:7] And I know that for humanities and social sciences, human intelligence is still very much what we want to value first and foremost, and how do we make sure that AI is human centered.  

[00:33:17] So there are opportunities around something like this, as Pari, you've been highlighting, that really should bring us together and make the case very strongly that it is to the advantage of our institutions and our Canadian public, the students, the learners.  

[00:33:34] All of communities that benefit when there's more collaboration between, between these institutions, universities, colleges, and certainly is the case for humanities and social sciences as well.

[00:33:44] Pari Johnston: And maybe Karine, I could make a bit of an appeal. So, you know, it would be great to have the Federation's voice in this conversation as it applies to college applied research.

[00:33:52] Because I will say that we didn't see ourselves in the budget on college applied research. And you know, we're going need voices like the Federation and others, to help make the case about why it matters as much as, um, university research, if we care about impact and we care about regional economic development and community development.

[00:34:11] So, you know, this is an area where we will be looking for ecosystem partners to help make the case that, you know, knowledge discovery is so important for our future, but so is knowledge translation and application.  

[00:34:23] And last week's budget did great on the first part, it missed the second part, and really to support community and nation building, we need both. so the, the Federation's voice around that will be welcome.

[00:34:36] Kim Honey: That must have been disappointing for colleges to be, I, I, yeah. I mean, I know universities were hanging on every word looking for the research money, trying to track that talent that's, you know, leaving the US in droves, for example, and lots of countries are trying to jump on that bandwagon but yeah, I didn't even think of that, Pari until you mentioned it, that colleges were not there.

[00:34:57] Pari Johnston: So, like, like Europe, Canada has put in a lot of money to attract international top researchers, which is an important part of our future. But Europe also invests very strongly in their applied institutions, their applied research and their technical training.

[00:35:16] So, the European countries that we're trying to compete with. Invest in both. And you know, we're going to continue to work hard to help make the case for the future, particularly since we have a bit of a funding cliff for our applied research program top up through NSERC, coming in March. So you'll hear more from us on the importance of making sure that that miss gets picked up and, and we get that investment we need.

[00:35:40] Kim Honey: Well, given that we're entering the AI age and the machines are going to think for humans, the humans are going to have to do something different, right? So we'll get, we're going to need both.  

[00:35:50] So just to wrap up, if you guys could each give me sort of a key message to Canadians or anyone who's listening to this podcast about colleges and thinking about colleges and universities and the relationship between them, what's the key message you want to leave them with? What? What do you think that they should consider and think about?

[00:36:10] Karine Morin: We need to think of the sector as in a holistic way. Definitely, we have to look at the sector as opportunities and choice, definitely we have to think of the sector that is stronger when it is united, when we're working together, and there's no reason why that budget could not have extended.  

[00:36:29] Just like we are always worried that humanities and social sciences won't quite get its fair share when there's all this excitement about research, towards the technology side of things and not often enough towards the social innovation, civil society, etc.  

[00:36:45] So we're kind of used to those blinders, and I think when we take off our blinders, when we look at a bigger picture, it is to the advantage of everyone, and in fact, absolute necessary right now given our challenges, so, Pari, we'll be talking some more, for sure.

[00:37:01] Pari Johnston: Well, if I just had to say one thing, I'd say that we are a country that is renowned for its public post-secondary system. Like if you get out internationally, the interest in understanding and then leveraging the strengths of Canada's college and university system is, is widely seen.

[00:37:19] And I am interested in helping ensure that we remember that in terms of our own nation building, and community building, that we need our institutions, we need our public colleges to be strong and vital right across the country, learners deserve it, communities rely on it and Canada will be better for it.

[00:37:40] Kim Honey: Great. Well, thank you both for speaking to me about it certainly left me with lots to think about, I have been on many campuses across the country and seen some amazing cool things at both colleges and universities, and everyone should really, if there's an open house, go, because there are so many cool labs and students being snapped up out of robotics labs.

[00:37:56] And, and not just on universities too, you know, wacky greenhouses, so many cool things, you hadn't thought of before, so if you're looking for, even have a young person in your life who's not sure what they want to do, just go on campus and walk around, talk to people. It's really worth your while.

[00:38:19] Karine Morin: The curiosity will be tangible if you make that trip, yes.

[00:38:22] Kim Honey: Thank you both.

[00:38: 24] Pari Johnston: Thank you so much.

[00:38:30] Kim Honey: As we wrap up, let's keep the conversation going. Share your thoughts on collaboration and post-secondary education. Tell us what's working in your community, where new partnerships are forming, and what challenges you're tackling next. Join the discussion on social media by tagging federation_hss and visit federation.ca/big-thinking-podcast, for more.

[00:38:59] Thank you for listening to the special episode of The Big Thinking Podcast in collaboration with The Conversation. Also, a very sincere thank you to our guests, Pari Johnson and Karine Morin.  

[00:39:07] The Big Thinking Podcast would like to thank the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council, whose support helps makes this podcast possible. Finally, thank you to CitedMedia for their support in producing the Big Thinking Podcast.